Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
15 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

rosea.grammostola
Quite a hijack...

No credits to the original author in the release announcement, which is
quite disrespectful. He did finally solve the session management problem
on Linuxaudio with Non-Session-Manager after several attempts by some
serious skilled programmers.

Release around midnight Europe time.

Very classy guys.

I've had e-mail contact with Nils twice about NSM this week. No word
about this hijack/fork. All though I understand in some way that a fork
is a logical consequence and I'm not totally against (maybe the timing),
you guys really act like little boys or girls in high-school.

Disappointing.



On 6/17/20 11:52 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Linuxaudio.org presents: New Session Manager Version 1.3
>
>
> New Session Manager (NSM) is a tool to assist music production by
> grouping standalone programs into sessions. Your workflow becomes easy
> to manage, robust and fast by leveraging the full potential of
> cooperative applications.
>
> It is a community version of the "NON Session Manager" and free in
> every sense of the word: free of cost, free to share and use, free of
> spyware or ads, free-and-open-source.
>
> You can create a session, or project, add programs to it and then use
> commands to save, start/stop, hide/show all programs at once, or
> individually. At a later date you can then re-open the session and
> continue where you left off.
>
> All files belonging to the session will be saved in the same directory.
>
> New-Session-Manager is already included as binary package in Archlinux
> and KXStudio and will eventually replace Non-Session-Manager. You can
> find the source release on Github:
>
> https://github.com/linuxaudio/new-session-manager/releases/tag/v1.3
>
>
> Bullet Points
> * Drop-In replacement for the non-session-manager daemon nsmd and
> tools (e.g. jackpatch)
> * Simple and hassle-free build system to make packaging easy
> * Possibility to react to sensible bug fixes that would not have been
> integrated into original nsmd
> * Stay upwards and downwards compatible with original nsmd
> * Conservative and hesitant in regards to new features and
> behaviour-changes, but possible in principle
> * Keep the session-manager separate from the other NON* tools Mixer,
> Sequencer and Timeline.
> * Protect nsmd from vanishing from the internet one day.
> * The goal is to become the de-facto standard session manager for
> Linux distributions
>
> Changes since non-session-manager v1.2 (2017-07-08)
> * Rebranding to "new session manager"
> * Upstream GUI tools "non-session-manager" and "nsm-proxy" converted
> to standard FLTK instead of a custom toolkit
> * New message /nsm/gui/session/root raises NSM_API_VERSION_MINOR from
> 0 to 1 (1.0 -> 1.1)
> * Changed build system to meson
> * License upgraded to GPLv3
> * Simplified file structure
> * Fix compiler warnings.
>
> This is a joint release from multiple people under the linuxaudio.org
> "brand".
>
> https://github.com/linuxaudio/new-session-manager
>
>
> Greetings,
>
> dvzrv, falktx and nils
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-audio-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

Filipe Coelho-2
Hi

On 18/06/20 10:17, rosea.grammostola wrote:
> Quite a hijack...
>
> No credits to the original author in the release announcement, which
> is quite disrespectful. He did finally solve the session management
> problem on Linuxaudio with Non-Session-Manager after several attempts
> by some serious skilled programmers.


Fair point. We did mention that it is based on the NON stuff, but not
Jonathan's name. Sorry for that, it was not intentional.

The "highjack" had to be done though, otherwise NSM would simply go
nowhere. You even say yourself "I understand in some way that a fork is
a logical consequence".
We were very sad that the toxicity around one person was causing such
harm to such great tool.
In order to make NSM a real thing for linuxaudio (that is, not simply
used by a tiny few users and apps), we *need* to get the community involved.
To quote Jonathan himself:

 > Progress will not happen on its own. It must be forced along by
individuals of power, wisdom, and vision; which we should all aspire to
become.


> Release around midnight Europe time.
>
> Very classy guys.


Why is release time important there? (serious question)

We released after we had everything ready. And since we usually work on
these things past official work-hours, that meant late in the day.
I don't see how this changes anything, or tells anything about the
status of the project.


> Disappointing.


Might seem so from your point of you, but we tried, many many times to
get everyone to work together here.

After being treated like shit and being told to just "deal with it",
also seeing developers refusing to implement NSM precisely because of
this toxic situation, we just felt that we needed to do something about it.

NSM has been released for many years now (7 perhaps?) but still only a
tiny amount of standalone applications support it (and those that do,
sometimes do it in a broken way).
We want to change this, but there is no way this could happen if
NSM-related bugfixes get ignored, questions unanswered for years, and
developers shouted at for trying to fix things themselves.
I personally appreciate everything Jonathan has done so far for the NON
project, but he actively hurts it in the way he manages it.

In any case, one of the goals of new-session-manager is to be
backwards-compatible as much as possible.
So users with the original NON version will still benefit by the
(hopefully) growing amount of applications that will come to support it.


PS: do not take this personal please, it is not. and please do not
top-post, thanks



> On 6/17/20 11:52 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Linuxaudio.org presents: New Session Manager Version 1.3
>>
>>
>> New Session Manager (NSM) is a tool to assist music production by
>> grouping standalone programs into sessions. Your workflow becomes
>> easy to manage, robust and fast by leveraging the full potential of
>> cooperative applications.
>>
>> It is a community version of the "NON Session Manager" and free in
>> every sense of the word: free of cost, free to share and use, free of
>> spyware or ads, free-and-open-source.
>>
>> You can create a session, or project, add programs to it and then use
>> commands to save, start/stop, hide/show all programs at once, or
>> individually. At a later date you can then re-open the session and
>> continue where you left off.
>>
>> All files belonging to the session will be saved in the same directory.
>>
>> New-Session-Manager is already included as binary package in
>> Archlinux and KXStudio and will eventually replace
>> Non-Session-Manager. You can find the source release on Github:
>>
>> https://github.com/linuxaudio/new-session-manager/releases/tag/v1.3
>>
>>
>> Bullet Points
>> * Drop-In replacement for the non-session-manager daemon nsmd and
>> tools (e.g. jackpatch)
>> * Simple and hassle-free build system to make packaging easy
>> * Possibility to react to sensible bug fixes that would not have been
>> integrated into original nsmd
>> * Stay upwards and downwards compatible with original nsmd
>> * Conservative and hesitant in regards to new features and
>> behaviour-changes, but possible in principle
>> * Keep the session-manager separate from the other NON* tools Mixer,
>> Sequencer and Timeline.
>> * Protect nsmd from vanishing from the internet one day.
>> * The goal is to become the de-facto standard session manager for
>> Linux distributions
>>
>> Changes since non-session-manager v1.2 (2017-07-08)
>> * Rebranding to "new session manager"
>> * Upstream GUI tools "non-session-manager" and "nsm-proxy" converted
>> to standard FLTK instead of a custom toolkit
>> * New message /nsm/gui/session/root raises NSM_API_VERSION_MINOR from
>> 0 to 1 (1.0 -> 1.1)
>> * Changed build system to meson
>> * License upgraded to GPLv3
>> * Simplified file structure
>> * Fix compiler warnings.
>>
>> This is a joint release from multiple people under the linuxaudio.org
>> "brand".
>>
>> https://github.com/linuxaudio/new-session-manager
>>
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> dvzrv, falktx and nils
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linux-audio-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-audio-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

rosea.grammostola

On 6/18/20 12:34 PM, Filipe Coelho wrote:

> Hi
>
> On 18/06/20 10:17, rosea.grammostola wrote:
>> Quite a hijack...
>>
>> No credits to the original author in the release announcement, which
>> is quite disrespectful. He did finally solve the session management
>> problem on Linuxaudio with Non-Session-Manager after several attempts
>> by some serious skilled programmers.
>
>
> Fair point. We did mention that it is based on the NON stuff, but not
> Jonathan's name. Sorry for that, it was not intentional.
>
> The "highjack" had to be done though, otherwise NSM would simply go
> nowhere. You even say yourself "I understand in some way that a fork
> is a logical consequence".
> We were very sad that the toxicity around one person was causing such
> harm to such great tool.
> In order to make NSM a real thing for linuxaudio (that is, not simply
> used by a tiny few users and apps), we *need* to get the community
> involved.
> To quote Jonathan himself:
>
> > Progress will not happen on its own. It must be forced along by
> individuals of power, wisdom, and vision; which we should all aspire
> to become.
>
>
>> Release around midnight Europe time.
>>
>> Very classy guys.
>
>
> Why is release time important there? (serious question)
>
> We released after we had everything ready. And since we usually work
> on these things past official work-hours, that meant late in the day.
> I don't see how this changes anything, or tells anything about the
> status of the project.
>
>
>> Disappointing.
>
>
> Might seem so from your point of you, but we tried, many many times to
> get everyone to work together here.


You know I did a lot for NSM, and I'm probably the most likely the most
active user in the community. Involved from the start of the project. I
did a lot to improve the situation lately, with some success. I've had
contact with both of you last week (IRC and mail). Nils sent me mail
this week about NSM/Jonathan. Nothing about the fork. Besides the fact
that I understand that at some point a fork was inevitable, next time
you want to fork, just say it and make sure to do it in full daylight.
This is acting like snakes on pro level and in a way very childish too.
Quite disappointing for people who seems to have high social standards,
but are lacking a mirror at home apparently.

On a technical level, I'm glad you are aiming to be fully compatible
with the original Non-session-manager (NSM). I'm just afraid that you're
underestimating the task at hand and the accomplishments being made here
though. Not giving the original author the credits he deserves, might be
a sign of it as well.

 From personal experience, I've still have to find someone else besides
the original author of NSM, who understands why NSM works as a session
manager. It works I think, because it's simple and has clear rules. I
see a urge for new features, which are potentially harmful for the
success of NSM. When I didn't use Linuxaudio for years and restarted it,
it was quite a horrible experience. JACK standalone applications do have
all kinds of features, but where crashing on me constantly (the nice
thing about NSM, is that you've it back in one click). Totally unusable
to make music with. I'm personally not waiting for new non-essential NSM
features, which are making my setup less predictable, more resources
consuming and less stable.

Raysession, I've no confidence in it. I said enough about it. Better
spent your time in NSM support for clients.

You recommend Argodejo as GUI on the github page. I've a very hard time
finding it better then the default NSM GUI. The simple view is not that
simple anymore if you've a lot of sessions. The advanced view, is more
complex then the original GUI, because it gives you so much more
information. Duplicate was renamed as 'save as', which might cause
dataloss for people who expect it to behave as 'save as' in other
applications. Might be personal preferences, but all these small things
doesn't make me very enthusiastic about NSM without the original author.

A other related experience. Feature request for Radium. NSM support in
Radium, which is great. Author did implement accidentally server client
osc messages. As a consequence he decides to give Radium session manager
functionality as well. I think this design approach will harm a reliable
and predictable NSM session environment for the user at the end.

Anyway, wasted too much time on it already probably.

Cheers.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

Filipe Coelho-2
On 06/18/20 13:10, rosea.grammostola wrote:
> You know I did a lot for NSM, and I'm probably the most likely the
> most active user in the community. Involved from the start of the project.

Yes, I know.
Though for quite some years after the initial launch you were away from
the scene, only recently coming back to check on status of linux audio
and related things.
So please do not make it seem like you were helping all these years, NSM
has been dormant for a while now until we (including you) recently
starting pushing the discussion again.

Before you came back though, we already had set on NSM as the de-facto
SM to use (which you do not seem to believe it seems).
Last year I gave a talk at Sonoj discussion JACK, and its future. I
specifically mention that NSM is the winner of all SMs, that
JACK-Session is being made deprecated, and congratulations to Jonhathan
for that.
That has been my opinion for a long time, but I could never do much
about it.
Once I became the JACK maintainer, it was easier to push into this
direction.

Nils was also always very active in pushing the conversation regarding
NSM, making code examples on how to use it, and keeping the NON wiki
updated.
He made his new tools (Patroneo, Fluahjo and Vico) entirely based around
NSM.

> I did a lot to improve the situation lately, with some success. I've
> had contact with both of you last week (IRC and mail). Nils sent me
> mail this week about NSM/Jonathan. Nothing about the fork. Besides the
> fact that I understand that at some point a fork was inevitable, next
> time you want to fork, just say it and make sure to do it in full
> daylight.

We talked about the fork quite a few times in the #lad IRC channel,
where most linux-audio developers hang out.
Again, the timing of the announcement is irrelevant. Might be night time
for you, but it was still day in the American continent, as usual per
timezones ;)

We had many times tried to make things work with Jonathan, you of all
people should know.
If we spoke about a fork, we would fear yet another shit-storm would
come, and we are tired of that at this point.

PS: There is no need for personal attacks here, please cut that out and
be nice.


> On a technical level, I'm glad you are aiming to be fully compatible
> with the original Non-session-manager (NSM). I'm just afraid that
> you're underestimating the task at hand and the accomplishments being
> made here though. Not giving the original author the credits he
> deserves, might be a sign of it as well.
>
> From personal experience, I've still have to find someone else besides
> the original author of NSM, who understands why NSM works as a session
> manager. It works I think, because it's simple and has clear rules.

We do understand why NSM works, so much that we are actively pushing for it!
If we did not believe that NSM can be the de-facto SM, we would not go
to all this trouble for it, insisting on it after so many years despite
the toxic environment around it.

I also think the clear rules is what makes NSM work, not sure why would
say I do not. Me, Nils, David and many others, we all do.
Other SMs have clear design issues, where NSM was brave enough to be
quite strict on what applications are allowed to do, and that is what it
makes it possible to succeed.


> I see a urge for new features, which are potentially harmful for the
> success of NSM. When I didn't use Linuxaudio for years and restarted
> it, it was quite a horrible experience. JACK standalone applications
> do have all kinds of features, but where crashing on me constantly
> (the nice thing about NSM, is that you've it back in one click).
> Totally unusable to make music with. I'm personally not waiting for
> new non-essential NSM features, which are making my setup less
> predictable, more resources consuming and less stable.

Not exactly true about new features. We do not want to add new stuff
into NSM, it is perfectly fine as it is.

We do want though to make the user experience better.
As requests for (in my opinion sensible) features to the GUI were
ignored, and me and Nils not being comfortable developing with FLTK, the
only solution was to try to create a brand-new GUI that we can maintain.
This will change nothing about NSM though, the protocol will remain
exactly the same, with very tiny exceptions where unavoidable.
One such change is the highly-requested possibility of getting the NSM
Session dir out of $HOME and into $XDG_CONFIG_HOME, there was no way to
support this without adding a tiny new *GUI only* change.
And the *GUI only* is critical, the NSM protocol still remains
unchanged, this is only used for "NSM Control Panels".

Stability issues of standalone applications are a bummer for sure, but
not related to NSM.

Also, in case this was not obvious... We made the fork leaving the
original NSM GUI untouched, it is the same original code.
So there is no need to use any new "less predictable, more resource
consuming and less stable" control GUIs.


> Raysession, I've no confidence in it. I said enough about it. Better
> spent your time in NSM support for clients.

RaySession has nothing to do with this announcement, let's not talk
about it here.


> You recommend Argodejo as GUI on the github page. I've a very hard
> time finding it better then the default NSM GUI. The simple view is
> not that simple anymore if you've a lot of sessions. The advanced
> view, is more complex then the original GUI, because it gives you so
> much more information. Duplicate was renamed as 'save as', which might
> cause dataloss for people who expect it to behave as 'save as' in
> other applications. Might be personal preferences, but all these small
> things doesn't make me very enthusiastic about NSM without the
> original author.

Thanks for the constructive criticism.
The tool is very new, and I even haven't run it myself.
Please give us some time to get it nice and polished - it is not even
released yet.


> A other related experience. Feature request for Radium. NSM support in
> Radium, which is great. Author did implement accidentally server
> client osc messages. As a consequence he decides to give Radium
> session manager functionality as well. I think this design approach
> will harm a reliable and predictable NSM session environment for the
> user at the end.

Yes, I agree fully.
Not sure how he confused things so much, but it is not the task of the
applications to be messing with NSM server-side business..
Basically, he did not implement NSM properly. :(
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

rosea.grammostola

On 6/18/20 2:59 PM, Filipe Coelho wrote:
> NSM has been dormant for a while now until we (including you) recently
> starting pushing the discussion again.

Coincidentally at the same time I did join the scene again? New NSM
developments in Radium, Seq64, Hydrogen, Muse (maybe) and Rakarrack
(cancelled). Bugfixes in Ardour6. You don't have to give me any praise
for it, most was done in the background anyway and those developers
should get it of course, but just ignoring the efforts, mailing me about
NSM/Jonathan this week with so called concerns about his health and just
hijack the project without even noticing nor discussing it and releasing
it at midnight. WTF, really.

Anyway, I've said what I wanted to say. Good luck with it.

Cheers.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

Christopher Arndt
Am 18.06.20 um 16:09 schrieb rosea.grammostola:
> [...] and releasing it at midnight. WTF, really.
Yeah, WTF, really.

As Filipe already pointed out, the time of day of the release is totally
irrelevant and you keep on complaining about it without elaborating why
it is significant. Sorry, but that doesn't instill much sympathy for the
rest of your statements. And accusing the devs of "acting like snakes on
a pro level" doesn't help there either.


Chris
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

rosea.grammostola

On 6/18/20 9:29 PM, Christopher Arndt wrote:
> Am 18.06.20 um 16:09 schrieb rosea.grammostola:
>> [...] and releasing it at midnight. WTF, really.
> Yeah, WTF, really.
>
> As Filipe already pointed out, the time of day of the release is totally
> irrelevant and you keep on complaining about it without elaborating why
> it is significant.

It was maybe better to keep that for a private e-mail exchange indeed.
Let's say, for me personally it's been quite a hijack. But I've you've a
hard time imagine what a midnight release could have to do with it,
let's keep it that way and lets end that discussion here. :)
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

Paul Davis


On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 1:37 PM rosea.grammostola <[hidden email]> wrote:


But I've you've a
hard time imagine what a midnight release could have to do with it,
let's keep it that way and lets end that discussion here. :)

1) "midnight" is a point in time in a given time zone that could correspond to any hour of the day somewhere around the planet
2) many programmers, especially those working on unpaid projects, work late at night

your rush to assume ill-will here isn't a good look



 
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev

_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

rosea.grammostola


On 6/18/20 10:01 PM, Paul Davis wrote:


1) "midnight" is a point in time in a given time zone that could correspond to any hour of the day somewhere around the planet
2) many programmers, especially those working on unpaid projects, work late at night

your rush to assume ill-will here isn't a good look

I should have said: symbolically, the perfect timing. I do apologize.



_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

Hermann Meyer
In reply to this post by rosea.grammostola

Am 18.06.20 um 21:37 schrieb rosea.grammostola:

>
> On 6/18/20 9:29 PM, Christopher Arndt wrote:
>> Am 18.06.20 um 16:09 schrieb rosea.grammostola:
>>> [...] and releasing it at midnight. WTF, really.
>> Yeah, WTF, really.
>>
>> As Filipe already pointed out, the time of day of the release is totally
>> irrelevant and you keep on complaining about it without elaborating why
>> it is significant.
>
> It was maybe better to keep that for a private e-mail exchange indeed.
> Let's say, for me personally it's been quite a hijack. But I've you've
> a hard time imagine what a midnight release could have to do with it,
> let's keep it that way and lets end that discussion here. :)
>

there was some discussion on original-male about the future of NSM,
which was deleted lately by the original author. You, was part of this
discussion. So, I don't understand why you been so surprised now that it
really happen, just, because you, as a power user of NSM wasn't involved
in the process.

If you are still interested in the future of Linux Audio Session
Management you should really be happy that the Session Management is now
in the hands of linuxaudio.org

As a point of my side, I'm happy about that, and now, I'll consider to
implement support for NSM in my software, as I didn't have to deal with
original-male any more.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

Kjetil Matheussen-2
In reply to this post by rosea.grammostola
Filipe Coelho:

> > A other related experience. Feature request for Radium. NSM support in
> > Radium, which is great. Author did implement accidentally server
> > client osc messages. As a consequence he decides to give Radium
> > session manager functionality as well. I think this design approach
> > will harm a reliable and predictable NSM session environment for the
> > user at the end.
>
> Yes, I agree fully.
> Not sure how he confused things so much, but it is not the task of the
> applications to be messing with NSM server-side business..
> Basically, he did not implement NSM properly. :(

Well, we are talking about a sub menu in the file menu called "NSM
Server". This sub menu has the following elements:

* New NSM Session
* Open NSM Session
* Save NSM Session
* Duplicate NSM Session
* Quit NSM Session

The reason for this is to make it possible for the user not having to
switch between two programs. The user can for instance easily assign
keybindings to these options. But it is an entirely optional feature!
If you don't need it, don't use it. It's madness making such a fuss
about this.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
hgn
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

hgn
Am 19.06.2020 12:26 schrieb Kjetil Matheussen:
Well, we are talking about a sub menu in the file menu called "NSM
Server"
The reason for this is to make it possible for the user not having to
switch between two programs. The user can for instance easily assign
keybindings to these options. But it is an entirely optional feature!
If you don't need it, don't use it. It's madness making such a fuss
about this.

 From a conceptual level and from the user perspective this is right.
Whatever helps the workflow is good, especially when dealing with a
situation where one program is nearly monolithic with a few satellites,
like in Radiums case.

Kjetil, if Radium is itself a client please don't call
"/nsm/gui/gui_announce" for the server functionality. (I have not read
your code).
nsmd will only remember the last GUI to call that and send reponses and
messages only to that address.  In effect this would "steal" control
from the NSM-Gui and make it useless.

This might change in the future with new-session-manager, which could
keep a list of GUIs instead.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

Filipe Coelho-2
In reply to this post by Kjetil Matheussen-2
On 06/19/20 11:26, Kjetil Matheussen wrote:

> Filipe Coelho:
>>> A other related experience. Feature request for Radium. NSM support in
>>> Radium, which is great. Author did implement accidentally server
>>> client osc messages. As a consequence he decides to give Radium
>>> session manager functionality as well. I think this design approach
>>> will harm a reliable and predictable NSM session environment for the
>>> user at the end.
>> Yes, I agree fully.
>> Not sure how he confused things so much, but it is not the task of the
>> applications to be messing with NSM server-side business..
>> Basically, he did not implement NSM properly. :(
> Well, we are talking about a sub menu in the file menu called "NSM
> Server". This sub menu has the following elements:
>
> * New NSM Session
> * Open NSM Session
> * Save NSM Session
> * Duplicate NSM Session
> * Quit NSM Session
>
> The reason for this is to make it possible for the user not having to
> switch between two programs. The user can for instance easily assign
> keybindings to these options. But it is an entirely optional feature!
> If you don't need it, don't use it. It's madness making such a fuss
> about this.

After thinking more about this, you are correct.
You were doing server-side calls before where the user was not aware of
such thing happening, but putting that into its own dedicated menu makes
it clear.
I got into the mindset from other people that this was somewhat very bad
and stuff... my apologies.

It does indeed make sense when we consider Radium will be doing pretty
much all of the session's sequencing and audio render.
For radium, NSM extends its standalone possibilities, while still being
compatible with NSM overall and thus usable for others that would like
to use Radium for only specific tasks instead of the full project.

Thanks for implementing NSM by the way!
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

Hermann Meyer
In reply to this post by Hermann Meyer

Am 18.06.20 um 22:09 schrieb Hermann Meyer:

>
> Am 18.06.20 um 21:37 schrieb rosea.grammostola:
>>
>> On 6/18/20 9:29 PM, Christopher Arndt wrote:
>>> Am 18.06.20 um 16:09 schrieb rosea.grammostola:
>>>> [...] and releasing it at midnight. WTF, really.
>>> Yeah, WTF, really.
>>>
>>> As Filipe already pointed out, the time of day of the release is
>>> totally
>>> irrelevant and you keep on complaining about it without elaborating why
>>> it is significant.
>>
>> It was maybe better to keep that for a private e-mail exchange indeed.
>> Let's say, for me personally it's been quite a hijack. But I've you've
>> a hard time imagine what a midnight release could have to do with it,
>> let's keep it that way and lets end that discussion here. :)
>>
>
> there was some discussion on original-male about the future of NSM,
> which was deleted lately by the original author. You, was part of this
> discussion. So, I don't understand why you been so surprised now that it
> really happen, just, because you, as a power user of NSM wasn't involved
> in the process.
>
> If you are still interested in the future of Linux Audio Session
> Management you should really be happy that the Session Management is now
> in the hands of linuxaudio.org
>
> As a point of my side, I'm happy about that, and now, I'll consider to
> implement support for NSM in my software, as I didn't have to deal with
> original-male any more.
>

. . . and as I said, NSM support is landed in guitarix now.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [LAU] Release: New Session Manager Version 1.3

rosea.grammostola
In reply to this post by Hermann Meyer
Ok, the cooled down version. My apology for the whitenoise.

On 6/18/20 10:09 PM, Hermann Meyer wrote:
>
> If you are still interested in the future of Linux Audio Session
> Management you should really be happy that the Session Management is now
> in the hands of linuxaudio.org

It's positive that people are still working on it indeed. It's also a
good thing that people who prefer a QT gui, have a option to use
Argodejo (new GUI for NSM). It's positive that nsmd and a gui (argodejo)
will be easier accessible for regular Linux users and that it's chosen
to be the session manager to focus on and to recommend for Linuxaudio.
It's positive that they stick with the original NSM design, not
reinventing the wheel.

I'm not positive about the renaming to new-session-manager though.
Non-session-manager is around for many years now, renaming it, adds
confusion, also in relation to the existent documentation around on the
Internet. I would really reconsider whether this change of name is
needed and a wise thing to do. This part is also the 'hijackish' part
for me, I know, it's free software, but still, it's a bit too much
claiming NSM now with a whole plan behind it.

It was Jonathan himself who suggested to put nsmd in it's own
repository, so it would be easy to package Argodejo with nsmd for the
variety of Linux distributions (the dependency on NTK and using waf made
it difficult to get it in distros like Debian). It would be better to
settle around with the original developer on how to organize this. But
with a bit more patience, this drastic approach was not needed I think.
If a fork turned out to be the only workable option, it might have been
better to just fork nsmd and rename that, and don't touch the
non-session-manager (GUI) at all. The version available on the new
github repo is not a fair replacement for the original GUI at the moment
anyway. It has problems with the graphics. It's also not the intention
to develop it further, so why fork and rename it.

The most important change is the change of the maintainers/developers of
course. All though I'm sure it has positive sides in some aspects of it,
don't forget we have NSM because of the work of Jonathan. He has come up
with a session manager that works better then previous attempts, all
though technically less complex it seems. Quite a accomplishment. It
might sound good to have it labeled under 'linuxaudio' now, and aim for
a more community driven development, but being nice and easy to each
other isn't always good for the software. In fact, one of the reasons
why NSM works, is because the original developer didn't make all kinds
of compromises, for the sake of being a nice and friendly community.

So, a new way of maintaining the software, isn't success guaranteed. If
I compare Carla with the NON tools for instance, it's a totally
different approach to software development. Where NSM is minimal and
restricted, Carla has lots of features, even quite some experimental
ones. I'm not judging about which approach is better, I'm happily using
both of them, but I'm convinced that NSM is a success because it's
minimal, restricted and without compromises. So for session management a
minimal approach is surely a better one imho. Also building a GUI for
NSM, is different coffee then actually judging about if and which
features should be implemented in NSM and how that should be done.  So,
I've to see how this different maintainer-ship will turn out, but the
original developer has proven that he 'gets it' when it comes to session
management, for the others it's something we'll have to wait for and
see. But not having the original designer of NSM as maintainer for
whatever reason, I see it as a loss, not as improvement.

Anyway, at the end of the day, the real important thing which improves
user experience significantly at the moment is adding NSM support to
applications. Hacking around applications without NSM support, without
adding NSM support itself as I also see happening, is time spending on
the wrong things and adds only to a more confusing, less stable and a
worse user experience imho. I'm glad this Argodejo/NSM project doesn't
seem to take this path and I hope it keeps that way.

It has been said that there are not enough applications adding NSM
support. I think a list of +- 30 applications isn't that bad at all
actually, with quite some important ones included. For myself I've just
a short list of applications that would have been nice to support NSM:
Radium (in next release), Seq64/66 (work in progress), Hydrogen (work in
progress), Carla-single (in roadmap), Muse (possibly maybe), Rakarrack,
Sooperlooper, (Luppp needs a bugfix).

In meantime, the original Non-Session-Manager with the NTK toolkit is
still available, easy to build and as I prefer it above Argodejo myself,
I'll still be heading to the NON project and more will do so most
likely. So you can state that it will replace the Non-Session-Manager,
but at the end the users decide I guess and for the user it is actually
just a matter of which GUI you prefer for the Non-Session-Manager, with
the advantage of Argodejo being easy to package for Linux distributions
and having a more responsive and active developer.  I think this could
have been offered to the user in a less radical way, without releasing
'New-Session-Manager' (which has a lot of characteristics, but being new
is not one of them).


My 0.02$
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev