Speakers alignment

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Speakers alignment

Jaromír Mikeš-2
Hi list,

I am searching for tool that would allowed me to align sound system.
I would like send sound impulse to one speaker and get delay time (ms) based on captured signal by measurement mic.
For top speakers impulse could be about 2.5 kHz I guess.
A bit more complicated situation could be for aligning top speaker and subs probably impulse of crossover frequency would be necessary.
That mean 60Hz 80Hz or 100Hz depend on system XO.

Any suggestion how to achieve this? GUI CLI whatever?

best regards

mira

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Re: Speakers alignment

Jaromír Mikeš-2


2017-08-15 15:32 GMT+02:00 Michael Squires <[hidden email]>:


On 8/15/17 8:56 AM, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:
Hi list,

I am searching for tool that would allowed me to align sound system.
I would like send sound impulse to one speaker and get delay time (ms) based on captured signal by measurement mic.
For top speakers impulse could be about 2.5 kHz I guess.
A bit more complicated situation could be for aligning top speaker and subs probably impulse of crossover frequency would be necessary.
That mean 60Hz 80Hz or 100Hz depend on system XO.

Any suggestion how to achieve this? GUI CLI whatever

The human ear can hear this quite well, I understand.  I have a Behringer crossover with adjustable delay built in and I think there's a procedure to do this in the manual.

There are also software for speaker testing and design that I've seen.  The most complete seems to be available from Parts Express.  I've also seen software packages with things like waterfall displays available for the PC.

Mike Squires

Hi Mike,

thank you for suggestions, but only what I am searching for is to measure delay in ms for impulse from two sources.
Most close what I've found is Fon's Jack_Delay which measure sound card latency for set of tones.

http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/linuxaudio/index.html
(scroll down the page)

Only difference is I don't want link input and output of sound card, but play to speaker and capture sound in mic.
And I would probably should just one tone instead of set.

best regards

mira


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Re: Speakers alignment

Fons Adriaensen-3
In reply to this post by Jaromír Mikeš-2
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 02:56:32PM +0200, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:

> I am searching for tool that would allowed me to align sound system.
> I would like send sound impulse to one speaker and get delay time (ms)
> based on captured signal by measurement mic.

Practical solution:

For a small (living room) system, just use a tape measure.
For a big one (PA system), use a laser rangefinder.

Then divide by speed of sound (343 m/s) in normal conditions.

Ciao,

--
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: Speakers alignment

Jaromír Mikeš-2


2017-08-15 22:15 GMT+02:00 Fons Adriaensen <[hidden email]>:
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 02:56:32PM +0200, Jaromír Mikeš wrote:

> I am searching for tool that would allowed me to align sound system.
> I would like send sound impulse to one speaker and get delay time (ms)
> based on captured signal by measurement mic.

Practical solution:

For a small (living room) system, just use a tape measure.
For a big one (PA system), use a laser rangefinder.

Then divide by speed of sound (343 m/s) in normal conditions.

Well ... that's what I usually do :)
But is not always enough ... with big system in outdoor there is a problem to measure with laser on sunny days.
Yes there are expensive solutions like for e.g. from Leica which works up to 200m on sun ... price about 500$
Also there is one other problem ... when you align top speakers (flying) with subs (stacked) I believe 15'' from "tops" having faster reaction than 18''  from subs.
And one more problem ... system I am working with having some delays on factory presets ... Yep they are documented in charts ...
But anyway would be nice to have a tool to verify own calculation.

best regards

mira


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Re: Speakers alignment

Michael Jarosch
Am Dienstag, den 15.08.2017, 22:35 +0200 schrieb Jaromír Mikeš:

> But is not always enough ... with big system in outdoor there is a
> problem to measure with laser on sunny days.

I thought, you need an acoustical rather than an optical tool to
measure your speakers?

Greets!
Mitsch
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Re: Speakers alignment

Dominique Michel-3
In reply to this post by Jaromír Mikeš-2
Le Tue, 15 Aug 2017 22:35:41 +0200,
Jaromír Mikeš <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Also there is one other problem ... when you align top speakers
> (flying) with subs (stacked) I believe 15'' from "tops" having faster
> reaction than 18''  from subs.

Or the cheap filters used to split the different frequency ranges
doesn't respect the phase of the signal. (good filters in that
regard can be very complex and expansive - it is one of the most
complicated issue in electronics) Which give what you describe here:
> And one more problem ... system I am working with having some delays
> on factory presets ... Yep they are documented in charts ...

With different speakers, what make the delay between them is phase of
the signal. That phase is not dependant of the speaker size, but of the
(lack of) de-phasing into the frequency splitter and of the mechanical
alignment of the coil of the speakers (they must be on the same vertical
plan). The difference between a 15'' and a 18'' will be the dynamic.
15'' or less will be good for funky music or jazz rock, when 15'' or
18'' will be good for rockabilly.

In outdoor conditions you can also get issues with
reflections which can give you a lot of issues like larsen, or multiple
sound paths from the speakers to the public.

Cheers,
Dominique
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Re: Speakers alignment

Jaromír Mikeš-2
In reply to this post by Michael Jarosch


2017-08-16 1:19 GMT+02:00 Michael Jarosch <[hidden email]>:
Am Dienstag, den 15.08.2017, 22:35 +0200 schrieb Jaromír Mikeš:

> But is not always enough ... with big system in outdoor there is a
> problem to measure with laser on sunny days.

I thought, you need an acoustical rather than an optical tool to
measure your speakers?

Short answer is ... both ;)

mira

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Re: Speakers alignment

Jaromír Mikeš-2
In reply to this post by Dominique Michel-3


2017-08-16 12:41 GMT+02:00 Dominique Michel <[hidden email]>:
Le Tue, 15 Aug 2017 22:35:41 +0200,
Jaromír Mikeš <[hidden email]> a écrit :

In outdoor conditions you can also get issues with
reflections which can give you a lot of issues like larsen, or multiple
sound paths from the speakers to the public.

You meant "indoor" here I guess ... open outdoor is usually much better for reflections.

mira


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Re: Speakers alignment

Dominique Michel-3
Le Wed, 16 Aug 2017 19:05:02 +0200,
Jaromír Mikeš <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> 2017-08-16 12:41 GMT+02:00 Dominique Michel
> <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Le Tue, 15 Aug 2017 22:35:41 +0200,
> > Jaromír Mikeš <[hidden email]> a écrit :
> >
> > In outdoor conditions you can also get issues with
> > reflections which can give you a lot of issues like larsen, or
> > multiple sound paths from the speakers to the public.
> >  
>
> You meant "indoor" here I guess ... open outdoor is usually much
> better for reflections.

It can also append outdoor. Here in Switzerland, it is the Paleo
Festival in July. Some years ago, peavey made the sound system of
the main stage. They was very surprised by how easy it was to put
the whole system in larsen. The problem was not the forest that was in
the front of the stage at the back of the mixing table, but the water
closed at the left of the stage. It was not possible to move that WC,
so a few years later, they moved the whole festival to a new location
and that larsen issue was solved.

Dominique
>
> mira
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Re: Speakers alignment

Michael Jarosch
Am Freitag, den 18.08.2017, 02:45 +0200 schrieb Dominique Michel:
> to put the whole system in larsen

Hi!

Could't find a translation for "larsen". What does it mean?

Greets!
Mitsch
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Re: Speakers alignment

Ralf Mardorf
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:03:52 +0200, Michael Jarosch wrote:
>Am Freitag, den 18.08.2017, 02:45 +0200 schrieb Dominique Michel:
>> to put the whole system in larsen  
>
>Could't find a translation for "larsen". What does it mean?

Hi,

"Audio feedback (also known as acoustic feedback, simply as feedback,
or the Larsen effect) [snip] The principles of audio feedback were
first discovered by Danish scientist Søren Absalon Larsen, hence the
name "Larsen Effect"." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_feedback

Regards,
Ralf
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Re: Speakers alignment

Michael Jarosch
Am Freitag, den 18.08.2017, 11:43 +0200 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:

> "Audio feedback (also known as acoustic feedback, simply as feedback,
> or the Larsen effect) [snip] The principles of audio feedback were
> first discovered by Danish scientist Søren Absalon Larsen, hence the
> name "Larsen Effect"." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_feedback

Ah, okay! Thanks!

Greets!
Mitsch
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