jackd without MIDI

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
17 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

jackd without MIDI

jonetsu@teksavvy.com
Hello,

I was told by bitwig support to deactivate 'MIDI in Jack's
preferences'.  Currently, qjakctl shows 'none' for MIDI driver
(option located at bottom right). They 'recommend using jack over ALSA
alone'.  I would like to give this a try.  Is there something else to
do to disable jackd MIDI support and have ALSA instead ?

Thanks.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

Paul Davis
This question is a bit confused.

It is up to an application which API it wants to use for dealing with MIDI (or audio) data. Disabling the presence of MIDI ports within JACK doesn't do anything to change what an application does (or at least, it shouldn't)

--p


On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 8:59 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,

I was told by bitwig support to deactivate 'MIDI in Jack's
preferences'.  Currently, qjakctl shows 'none' for MIDI driver
(option located at bottom right). They 'recommend using jack over ALSA
alone'.  I would like to give this a try.  Is there something else to
do to disable jackd MIDI support and have ALSA instead ?

Thanks.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user


_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

jonetsu@teksavvy.com
On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 21:08:02 -0500
Paul Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This question is a bit confused.

> It is up to an application which API it wants to use for dealing with
> MIDI (or audio) data. Disabling the presence of MIDI ports within
> JACK doesn't do anything to change what an application does (or at
> least, it shouldn't)

The problem is that bitwig does not work with jack MIDI.  As such I
see it entirely in their ball park to fix it.  And then if bitwig is
switched to ALSA (to be able to work with MIDI), it will not be able to
open the audio device as long as jackd runs.  There is a problem and it
is certainly not on jack's part, considering the number of applications
that runs with it.  But I'm willing to try what they suggest although
indeed it is not clear.  The goal would be to have bitwig and Ardour
running together, with MIDI and sound enabled in bitwig (which supports
jack transport BTW).  A problem prevents bitwig from using/receiving
MIDI data when it runs configured for jackd.  It has sound but no
MIDI.  When it runs configured for ALSA, it has MIDI but no sound....
until jackd is terminated.

_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

jonetsu@teksavvy.com
In reply to this post by Paul Davis
On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 21:08:02 -0500
Paul Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This question is a bit confused.

The actual text is:

  "You're probably asking Jack to handle midi devices, too, which
  doesn't work. Please deactivate MIDI in Jack's preferences and
  try again. We recommend using jack over alsa alone, as the
  performance and stability is way better when using jack."

_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

Paul Davis
Their language is not clear to me.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 10:19 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 21:08:02 -0500
Paul Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This question is a bit confused.

The actual text is:

  "You're probably asking Jack to handle midi devices, too, which
  doesn't work. Please deactivate MIDI in Jack's preferences and
  try again. We recommend using jack over alsa alone, as the
  performance and stability is way better when using jack."

_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user


_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

Filipe Coelho
In reply to this post by jonetsu@teksavvy.com


On 17.11.2015 04:01, [hidden email] wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 21:08:02 -0500
> Paul Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> This question is a bit confused.
>> It is up to an application which API it wants to use for dealing with
>> MIDI (or audio) data. Disabling the presence of MIDI ports within
>> JACK doesn't do anything to change what an application does (or at
>> least, it shouldn't)
> The problem is that bitwig does not work with jack MIDI.

Did you have a look into JackAss yet?
https://github.com/falkTX/JackAss#readme

I made exactly for those type of hosts that support Jack Audio but not
Jack MIDI.

_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

Ralf Mardorf
In reply to this post by Paul Davis
>On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 10:19 PM, [hidden email] wrote:  
>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 21:08:02 -0500 Paul Davis wrote:
>>  
>>   "You're probably asking Jack to handle midi devices, too, which
>>   doesn't work. Please deactivate MIDI in Jack's preferences and
>>   try again. We recommend using jack over alsa alone, as the
>>   performance and stability is way better when using jack."
>>
On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 22:28:50 -0500, Paul Davis wrote:
>Their language is not clear to me.

Perhaps Bitwig has got a section "Jack's preferences", were the OP
could chose between jackd audio + jackd MIDI and jackd audio + ALSA
MIDI.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

Chris Caudle
In reply to this post by jonetsu@teksavvy.com
On Mon, November 16, 2015 9:19 pm, [hidden email] wrote:
>   "You're probably asking Jack to handle midi devices, too, which
>   doesn't work. Please deactivate MIDI in Jack's preferences and
>   try again. We recommend using jack over alsa alone, as the
>   performance and stability is way better when using jack."

Does the ALSA API allow one software to use the audio interface
exclusively, while also allowing a different application to use MIDI on
the same physical device?
That is the only way I can see those instructions making sense, as saying
use JACK for audio, and access the ALSA MIDI directly from Bitwig.

Is that even possible, or once a device interface is claimed for exclusive
access by JACK does that mean both audio and MIDI access for that device
are locked to jackd?

--
Chris Caudle




_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

Paul Davis


On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Chris Caudle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, November 16, 2015 9:19 pm, [hidden email] wrote:
>   "You're probably asking Jack to handle midi devices, too, which
>   doesn't work. Please deactivate MIDI in Jack's preferences and
>   try again. We recommend using jack over alsa alone, as the
>   performance and stability is way better when using jack."

Does the ALSA API allow one software to use the audio interface
exclusively, while also allowing a different application to use MIDI on
the same physical device?

ALSA considers PCM and MIDI devices on the same "card" to be entirely independent. So .... yes.
 
That is the only way I can see those instructions making sense, as saying
use JACK for audio, and access the ALSA MIDI directly from Bitwig.

Is that even possible, or once a device interface is claimed for exclusive
access by JACK does that mean both audio and MIDI access for that device
are locked to jackd?

If JACK (or any other app) uses ALSA RAW MIDI, then the device access is exclusive. ALSA Sequencer MIDI implies shared access.
 


_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

Chris Caudle
On Tue, November 17, 2015 9:13 am, Paul Davis wrote:
> ALSA considers PCM and MIDI devices on the same "card" to be entirely
> independent...
> If JACK (or any other app) uses ALSA RAW MIDI, then the device access is
> exclusive. ALSA Sequencer MIDI implies shared access.

So problem solved?  Jonetsu needs to either have jackd not touch ALSA, or
use the seq interface, then configure Bitwig to use jack audio and ALSA
MIDI.

Unfortunately the manual is only available after you install the demo or
full application, so someone else who has Bitwig installed will have to
look through the manual to see if that is actually possible, and if so
what is Jonetsu missing to set that up properly.

--
Chris Caudle




_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

Paul Davis


On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 10:20 AM, Chris Caudle <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, November 17, 2015 9:13 am, Paul Davis wrote:
> ALSA considers PCM and MIDI devices on the same "card" to be entirely
> independent...
> If JACK (or any other app) uses ALSA RAW MIDI, then the device access is
> exclusive. ALSA Sequencer MIDI implies shared access.

So problem solved?  Jonetsu needs to either have jackd not touch ALSA, or
use the seq interface, then configure Bitwig to use jack audio and ALSA
MIDI.

depends on whether or not bitwig uses the ALSA raw MIDI API. if it does, then JACK (and everything else) should not touch ALSA MIDI at all. If Bitwig uses the ALSA sequencer API, then things should be fine either way.
 



_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

jonetsu@teksavvy.com
In reply to this post by Chris Caudle
> From: "Chris Caudle" <[hidden email]>
> Date: 11/17/15 10:21


> So problem solved?  Jonetsu needs to either have jackd not touch ALSA, or
> use the seq interface, then configure Bitwig to use jack audio and ALSA
> MIDI.

> Unfortunately the manual is only available after you install the demo or
> full application, so someone else who has Bitwig installed will have to
> look through the manual to see if that is actually possible, and if so
> what is Jonetsu missing to set that up properly.


I have no problem in sharing screen shots of the configure options and one or two pages of the manual that has to do with this configuration, if needed.  The options are not many and start with a main choice: jack or ALSA.  Based on that choice, other options are shown.  This means that it is not possible to configure partway this and partway that.  After choosing jack, the options are very few and none have to do with for instance, 'do not use jack MIDI'.


I did have a reply from Bitwig today with a series of steps to do and I will give it a try.









_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

jonetsu@teksavvy.com
On Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:13:30 -0500
jonetsu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I did have a reply from Bitwig today with a series of steps to do and
> I will give it a try.

Basically it boils down to this.  After booting the workstation, bitwig
is started, audio set to jack (not ALSA).  There is sound and the MIDI
keyboard works.  This is as it should be.  Why didn't I see it
before ?  Because I was loading what I'm used to work with first, that
is, Ardour.  So now bitwig is OK.  I start Ardour and load a session.
In this session there is a VST synth plugin.  Since the MIDI keyboard
is not seen in the MIDI tab (only in the ALSA tab) in qjackctl (where
Ardour MIDI connections are seen) I have to do:

% a2j_control ehw start

Now the MIDI keyboard and Ardour are found in the same MIDI tab in
qjackctl and a connection can be made between them.  Note that apart
from the audio tab, there's no bitwig elsewhere in qjackctl.  The
problem is, no MIDI is reaching the VST plugin in Ardour.

What I see is the first app to run gets the MIDI.  The other app that
is launched thereafter will not get.  It works in both ways: bitwig
first then no MIDI for Ardour.  Ardour first then no MIDI for bitwig.
This is extremely reproducible.

The question is now, how to share MIDI between the applications (let
alone which MIDI channel controls what) ?



_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

Paul Davis


On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 9:56 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:13:30 -0500
jonetsu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I did have a reply from Bitwig today with a series of steps to do and
> I will give it a try.

Basically it boils down to this.  After booting the workstation, bitwig
is started, audio set to jack (not ALSA).  There is sound and the MIDI
keyboard works.  This is as it should be.  Why didn't I see it
before ?  Because I was loading what I'm used to work with first, that
is, Ardour.  So now bitwig is OK.  I start Ardour and load a session.
In this session there is a VST synth plugin.  Since the MIDI keyboard
is not seen in the MIDI tab (only in the ALSA tab) in qjackctl (where
Ardour MIDI connections are seen) I have to do:

% a2j_control ehw start

Now the MIDI keyboard and Ardour are found in the same MIDI tab in
qjackctl and a connection can be made between them.  Note that apart
from the audio tab, there's no bitwig elsewhere in qjackctl.  The
problem is, no MIDI is reaching the VST plugin in Ardour.

What I see is the first app to run gets the MIDI.  The other app that
is launched thereafter will not get.  It works in both ways: bitwig
first then no MIDI for Ardour.  Ardour first then no MIDI for bitwig.
This is extremely reproducible.

The question is now, how to share MIDI between the applications (let
alone which MIDI channel controls what) ?

As I've explained previously:

    * the ALSA "raw" MIDI API implies exclusive device access. Devices
      accessed with this API cannot be shared. No data can be exchanged
      between applications either (not with this API, at least)

   * the ALSA "sequencer" MIDI API implies shared device access, and
     allows applications to exchange data as well.

   * JACK MIDI backend(s) exist for both of these APIs.
 
   * the JACK MIDI API implies shared device access and allows
     applications to exchange data as well.

try running this while JACK + Bitwig are running:

          lsof | grep /dev/snd
 



_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user


_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

michael noble-2
In reply to this post by jonetsu@teksavvy.com

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:56 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
The question is now, how to share MIDI between the applications (let
alone which MIDI channel controls what) ?

The issues seems like it could be related to this: http://answers.bitwig.com/questions/371/solved-midi-io-on-linux

Have you tried any of the solutions on that thread?

_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: jackd without MIDI

Paul Davis
There is some misinformation in that thread from Bitwig, also. It is NOT true that JACK requires exclusive access to MIDI devices.

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 1:02 AM, michael noble <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:56 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
The question is now, how to share MIDI between the applications (let
alone which MIDI channel controls what) ?

The issues seems like it could be related to this: http://answers.bitwig.com/questions/371/solved-midi-io-on-linux

Have you tried any of the solutions on that thread?

_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user



_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[SOLVED] Re: jackd without MIDI

jonetsu@teksavvy.com
In reply to this post by jonetsu@teksavvy.com
On Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:59:39 -0500
"[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Currently, qjakctl shows 'none' for MIDI driver
> (option located at bottom right). They 'recommend using jack over ALSA
> alone'.  I would like to give this a try.  Is there something else to
> do to disable jackd MIDI support and have ALSA instead ?

This was solved by using virtual MIDI interfaces and a2j with hardware
support.  The virtual MIDI interfaces are started at boot time.  Then
s2j is started:

% a2j_control ehw start

Then Ardour (Renoise, etc...) can be started and work with as usual.
For Bitwig, the external MIDI controller, shown in the MIDI tab of
qjackctl, is connected to the first virtual MIDI input, and Bitwig is
told to use that virmidi.  That way the MIDI controller can be used in
all applications.  

The next step could be to have MIDI channels for each of the plugins.
A synth in Bitwig would be on channel 1, a sample in Renoise triggered
from channel 2, another synth in Ardour from channel 3, etc..  With the
controller changing MIDI channel as needed.


_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user